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    Username Post: suisin wa gyuto vs.        (Topic#879782)
    JCSIII
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    06-06-10 04:00.32 - Post#2144001    



    Hi,

    I had a question about the honyaki gyuto with regards to degree of sharpness and edge holding ability. This knife has spurred my curiosity for some time as the thinnest stainless gyuto with a good hardness. I just wanted to know how it would compare to the sharpest knife I own a hiromoto as.The hiro blade has been thinned slightly, the edge heavily thinned below 10 degrees with a micro bevel around 12-15 degrees and ground closer to 80/20.

    Will the suisin get as sharp off the stones as the hiro? Can it get sharper than the hiro? Will it retain its edge as long? Will it resharpen easily? and is its edge durable enough for a pro kitchen?

    Thank You,l
     


    mainaman
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    06-06-10 04:12.36 - Post#2144007    


        In response to JCSIII

    Just a clarification, Suisin is not a true honyaki, and there are knives by other makers that are as thin.
    For home use you will never be able to tell any difference in the edge, or edge retention. I can't comment about pro use edge comparison.
     
    tk59
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    06-06-10 08:52.43 - Post#2144143    


        In response to mainaman

    • mainaman Said:
    Just a clarification, Suisin is not a true honyaki, and there are knives by other makers that are as thin.



    How is it not honyaki?
    Which knives and which makers?
     
    oivind_dahle
    Master Member KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 09:20.20 - Post#2144153    


        In response to tk59

    Is it a problem if its not Honyaki?

    As a amature chef and an unskilled sharpener I prefer kasumi. As i can read Honyaki is rather difficult to handle?

    http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/k...

    ASAIK Suisin gets a lot of good reviews?
    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suinh...

    I might end up with one myself
     
    mainaman
    Master Member KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 09:20.33 - Post#2144155    


        In response to tk59

    • tk59 Said:
    • mainaman Said:
    Just a clarification, Suisin is not a true honyaki, and there are knives by other makers that are as thin.



    How is it not honyaki?
    Which knives and which makers?


    Honyaki knives are hard to make and they definitely do not cost between 300 and 400 bucks.
    Tadatsuna, Mizuno Tanrenjo, and some other now in fashion cheaper knives are all in the 2mm range of thickness. Hope I am not missing or misrepresenting information on the subject
     
    tk59
    Master Member KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 09:42.37 - Post#2144161    


        In response to oivind_dahle

    • oivind_dahle Said:
    Is it a problem if its not Honyaki?

    As a amature chef and an unskilled sharpener I prefer kasumi. As i can read Honyaki is rather difficult to handle?

    http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/k...

    ASAIK Suisin gets a lot of good reviews?
    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suinh...

    I might end up with one myself


    My understanding is that honyaki refers to forging from a single piece of steel. If the blade is not true honyaki, it is either not forged in a traditional sense, or it is forge-welded and layered. It's more difficult to work because the entire blade may be hardened as opposed to dealing with additional softer materials. If this is true, it should not be significantly more difficult to sharpen or modify than any other blade made of the same material, heat-treated in the same fashion.

    My question was specifically how the Suisin is not honyaki. At this point, I'm assuming it is not traditionally forged.

    As for reviews, I'd talk to Jon Broida. Suisin gyuto is his baby.

    Edited by tk59 on 06-06-10 09:49.34. Reason for edit: No reason given.
     
    Donny Dont
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 09:51.34 - Post#2144168    


        In response to tk59

    The Suisin Honyaki is not honyaki because it is stainless.

    Joe
     
    JBroida
    Master Member KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 10:01.16 - Post#2144173    


        In response to tk59

    Ok... Suisin... honyaki or not? If you think of honyaki in the traditional sense of mizu-honyaki (water quenched differentially tempered) then it is not. If all honyaki means to you is made of a single piece of the same metal then it is. I take the more traditional view on this and refer to knives like the suisin as mono-steel knives.

    There are indeed a number of other makers that make super thin wa-gyutos. The shape of many of them is nearly identical. What differs is the type of steel, heat treat, and handle. Suisin is not necessarily always the thinnest, but they are all so freaking close it doesnt matter.

    To answer your original questions, it can not get sharper than the hiro, and it will not hold its edge as long. It does sharpen really easily though and i have used it in pro kitchen environments with no real probelms. This is how it is better than the hiro in my mind: Its so freaking thin it doesnt matter if it can get "sharper" than the hiro... it feels sharper than the hiro because it doest wedge in anything ever. The edge is less brittle than the AS in the hiro, so it wont chip as much.

    I've sharpened mine to a stupid thin edge of less than 10 degrees... maybe closer to 5 (or even less... i dont measure). I know that i loose some edge longevity with this, but i love how freaking sharp is can get. As will technically be able to get sharper, but the suisin feels sharper. As could hold an edge like that, but it would be super brittle.

    If you want a super thin gyuto, pick either the suisin or the tadatsuna (depending on what handle you like). They are identical for all intensive purposes (same shape, geometry, and HRC). If you want a knife with the same shape and geometry, but slightly softer steel (which makes it slightly more durable- as in less brittle and better with poly boards- in the kitchen and a little easier to sharpen, although you may have to sharpen a little more frequently) there are a number of options form various makers. Here's the short list: Takayuki Grand Cheff Wa, Ashi Hamono, Mizuno Tanrenjo, and Konosuke (I'm pretty sure i'm missing a few).

    For the record, i love my suisin... heres a picture of my baby:
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    AMP01
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 12:48.15 - Post#2144270    


        In response to JBroida

    John,

    How does the Suisin Inox compare to the Hattori fh or the Nenox S1 as far as edge retention and anything else you can think of?

    It sure is a good looking blade!

    Cheers,
    Andrew
     
    JBroida
    Master Member KnifeNut!
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    06-06-10 12:59.09 - Post#2144277    


        In response to AMP01

    To be honest, i've never used the hattori fh or nenox s1 long enough to compare edge retention. The nenox i've only used a couple of times and just for a few hours and the hattori i've only used once.

    That being said, here's what i've found... for the most part, edge retention of most of these high end knives (that fall into the same catagories... i.e. compare stainless to stainless, carbon to carbon, and powdered steel to powdered steel) are all really close in how they perform. The differences are minor for 80% of users. The edge rention of the suisin is not stellar by any means, but its not bad either. It holds up in a pro kitchen, so that is pretty good as far as i'm concerned.

    What makes the suisin and knives like it special is the thinness and geometry. Very minimal to no wedging and so thin that it doesnt really even need to be super sharp to cut well. Is this kind of knife right for everyone or every situation? No. But i like to have a knife like this around. Its like taking a ferarri out for a test drive. I'd never take one offroading, but it sure is fun to drive on the right streets/highways.
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