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    Username Post: Sabatier        (Topic#804285)
    mattt
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    Re: Sabatier
    10-13-07 06:28.29 - Post#1336541    


        In response to saf-t-cab

    I think I might really enjoy a French-pattern chef's knife and am trying to read up on steels in the modern versions...

    Sabatier K says they use Z50C13 in their stainless knives, hardened to 54/56 HRC. I can't find this steel referenced anywhere; I'm guessing the numbers mean .50% carbon and 13% chromium with no mention of moly or other elements. Would performance be similar to Wustof Classic, which I've found serviceable, or is this the really bad old stainless steel we've all been warned about?

    Everybody talks about Sabatier Carbone. I've been using a Hiromoto carbon gyuto and am not afraid of rust; I really like the patina actually. But my Hiro is 59 HRC and the only reliable reference I can find to hardness in Sabatier carbon knives is at therias.com, website for Sabatier Mexeur. They say their final hardness is 52/54...I'm trying to imagine just how much of a PITA that would be to keep sharp. [Sabatier K claims 54/56 HRC for their Vintage Carbone line but that reference appears to be cut 'n' pasted from the catalog entries for their stainless knives and I don't trust it.]

    Thoughts? I'm a home chef and don't need to worry about keeping an edge through hours and hours of prep, but would like to be able to slice 8 or 10 onions for soup without having to steel in the middle.

    Is there a traditional French-patterned knife out there in a better steel than those mentioned above, preferably with an impregnated wooden handle?

    MT

    Matt


     


    Baran
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    10-13-07 06:38.43 - Post#1336545    


        In response to mattt

    In my experience the older CS sabs will take a keen edge but let it dull out to about what a henckel SS will take pretty quick and stay there for a while. I suspect these will take and retain edges similar to your Wustof classic.
    Baran


     
    buzzard767
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    10-13-07 06:41.24 - Post#1336546    


        In response to mattt

    • mattt Said:
    Hey Buzz. I've seen your auctions on EBay and been tempted, glad to hear more are coming. I'm a little concerned about the durability with the nogent handle vs. riveted, since I tend to work my heavy Euro pattern knives pretty hard, smashing garlic, using the spine to tenderize and stuff like that.

    How do the vintage steel knives you sell compare to Sabatier K au Carbone, on objective points like hardness, thickness, and etc?
    http://www.sabatier-k.com/uk/au-carbone-vintage _15...

    MT



    In general, I think the Ks are on par with the Thiers-Issards. I don't know anything about what carbon they use or hardening. Sorry, but I wish I could help. I'd like to have the same length from each manufacturer side by side for a comparison.

    For what it's worth, I get mine from the importer at a quantity discount. He also has standard handles. Here's the site:

    For comparison:

    New TI 12" Nogent
    Spine thickness just forward of the bolster 5mm
    1" short of tip 1.75mm

    New 11" standard handle
    Spine thickness just forward of the bolster 4.8mm
    1" short of tip 1.8mm

    Vintage 11" 4 Star Elephant (pretty sure manufactured in the 60's)
    Spine thickness just forward of the bolster 6.1mm
    1" short of the tip 1.6mm

    The two new knives are somewhat more flexible than the vintage for obvious reasons.

    That is a nice price on the 10" K, but when you add in the 20 Euro shipping charge it's about a wash.

    Personally, I love the vintage knife. I also have a 9" and a 6" that see lots of use. Of course, that might all change when my Moritakas arrive.

    One more thing; I have found a few blades to be other than straight, so check the return policies.

    Buzz
    Buzz



     
    mattt
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    Sabatier
    10-13-07 06:43.56 - Post#1336548    


        In response to Baran

    Thanks Baran. You're saying the stainless Z50c13 should perform similar to Wusthof, right?

    edit: Thanks Buzz, too; give me a bit to digest all that.

    MT

    Matt




    Edited by mattt on 10-13-07 06:45.43. Reason for edit: No reason given.
     
    buzzard767
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    Re: Sabatier
    10-13-07 07:05.05 - Post#1336563    


        In response to mattt

    • mattt Said:
    Thanks Baran. You're saying the stainless Z50c13 should perform similar to Wusthof, right?



    MT



    I read in a couple places that almost all those "department store" knives are made 400A or a version thereof.

    Buzz
    Buzz



     
    Baran
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    Sabatier
    10-13-07 08:18.27 - Post#1336597    


        In response to buzzard767

    Most of the major knives are made out of 440 of sometype. Generally they will be 56-58 HRC. 440 steels can have between .65-1.2% Carbon, so the "high carbon stainless steel" you see advertised is usually .9% +. They'll have 16-18% Chromium. They can have other things like 1% Mn, up to 1%Si, etc. But the basics are the 1% C 17% Cr. They can have up to .75% Molybnium too.

    You are entirely right that Z50C13 is .5% carbon and 13% Chr. They'll be slightly softer.

    I think practically though you will see very little difference between these two stainless steels. The HC German knives will probably have a little better edge retention at the trade off of being harder to sharpen.

    The Au Carbine-K (or whatever, I can't recall exactly) should take a sharper edge but I doubt it will have very long retention. It will also probably sharpen up very fast and easily to a workable edge. At least compared to your Hiromoto, which are 60-61~ HRC. The Hiromoto will take a much sharper edge and keep it much longer, I would say. Don't misunderstand me though, I do like the old Carbon European knives.

    Sorry I was so brief before, hope this helps out! If I made any mistakes guys lemme know, I'm no expert!

    Edit: I guess I should say that I like the older knives because they are softer. You can actually get something resembling an edge on them with a steel, and you don't have to worry about chipping when you chop bone.
    Baran




    Edited by Baran on 10-13-07 08:22.17. Reason for edit: No reason given.
     
    mattt
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    Re: Sabatier
    10-14-07 04:30.47 - Post#1337083    


        In response to Baran

    Thanks again. I'm going to look again at the MAC Mighty Chef Line which I think has more of a French shape, in modern steel. I enjoy cooking traditional recipes with traditional tools but maybe a ~52 HRC carbon knife is something I'll look for at garage sales instead of buying new! To further complicate matters I see Epicurean Edge is now carrying Sabatier Mexeur carbon knives, $80 for the 10" though with plastic handle.

    MT

    Matt


     
    Baran
    Journeyman KnifeNut!
    *
    10-14-07 08:13.39 - Post#1337218    


        In response to mattt

    Well if you want a classic knife, you could talk to Buzz, his Sabs are the real deal. Though I think they are not vintage? (Correct me if I'm wrong here)
    Baran


     
    buzzard767
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    10-14-07 10:05.25 - Post#1337294    


        In response to Baran

    • Baran Said:
    Well if you want a classic knife, you could talk to Buzz, his Sabs are the real deal. Though I think they are not vintage? (Correct me if I'm wrong here)



    You are correct. The knives were made recently. The steel was forged prior to WWII and has been sitting around in their warehouse. Also, the newer ones have the 4 Star Elephant logo on the blade but I like the vintage knives with the logo stamped on the left side of the handle.

    Buzz
    Buzz



     
    groceryguy
    Member
    *
    10-25-07 15:27.32 - Post#1346467    


        In response to buzzard767

    I have a 2 3/4 inch carbon elephant paring knife and a 11 inch carbon nogent and while they arrived from France with a pretty poor edge they sharpened quickly and kept that edge fairly well depending on the acid level of the food I'm cutting.

    I tend to look at the knives like a cross between the softer nicer carbon of the cck cleavers and modern japanese carbon. While they do need a steeling more often the edge cuts better than any stainless I've used and the wide spine makes them easy on the inside of the index finger for chopping hard stuff like squash for any length of time.

    All in all I'd take the nogent elephant over anything else because of the age of the forgings (30 to 80 years old blanks that the owner has gathered from defunct Sabatier houses basements and attics).

    Obviously they are one part quality knife and one part fetish item but in a non-restaurant setting I think they are some of the best non-japanese knives available plus they can hack the tough stuff that those hard blades can't (try chopping up a lobster with a thin hard japanese blade... my sabatier nogent could still mince cilantro for the basting butter afterwards).
    -GG


    Blog:
    Groceryguy

    Job:
    Marlow and Sons


     


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