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    Username Post: Sharpening Angle for S30V Blade on a Kershaw Leek        (Topic#784145)
    bnp
    Member
    *
    12-16-06 12:11.20 - Post#1107576    



    I have a new Kershaw Leek with S30V blade and G-10 handle. I'm try to decide what kind of edge to put on it.

    I have a Spyderco Sharpmaker, and I typically put a 30 degree (15 per side) backbevel and a 40 degree microbevel (20 per side) on my 440C blades.

    I imagine the S30V blade could handle that just fine, but I was wondering if I could go with just a 30 degree edge (15 per side). I'm normally just cutting on cardboard, but would want it to stand up to the occasional hardwood whittling as well.

    Does anyone have any experience with that kind of edge on Kershaw S30V steel or any S30V for that matter?

    Thanks,
    Ben
     


    Chico Buller
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-17-06 06:20.24 - Post#1108082    


        In response to bnp

    Is the angle of the knife presently 15 degrees, or will you have to remove lots of metal to get to that point?

    Smear it with magic marker and make a very like pass.

    If the stone hits the bevel very high or very low, you'll have to shorten the life of the knife just to get to the point where the sharpener says the angle should be.




    Edited by The Tourist on 12-17-06 06:21.25. Reason for edit: By the hair of my chinny chin.
     
    cbwx34
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-17-06 11:38.32 - Post#1108301    


        In response to Chico Buller

    bnp, you might want to read this thread, it talks about sharpening S30V

    http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?ti...

    • The Tourist Said:
    If the stone hits the bevel very high or very low, you'll have to shorten the life of the knife just to get to the point where the sharpener says the angle should be.


    Why do you say this? If you reprofile a knife, you're removing metal from the the shoulder toward the edge. I don't see how this shortens the life of the knife, unless you go too narrow, to the point the knife gets damaged in use. And if you go the other way (to a greater angle), you can do that in a few passes, and not take off much metal.

    cbw
    cbw

    Used Sharpening Equipment For Sale


     
    Chico Buller
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-17-06 16:30.49 - Post#1108495    


        In response to cbwx34

    • cbwx34 Said:
    I don't see how this shortens the life of the knife



    Any needless removal of metal shortens the life of a knife. You just senselessly ground off part of the knife. You thinned it. It is more apt to chipping from lateral stress.

    If the knife has a decided distal taper, and you further thinned the point, it is easier to snap that point if the knife is accidentally dropped.

    Add to those issues is th alloy S30V. I happen to like that blend, but I have had some minor problems.

    On my Strider SnG I noticed what appeared to be a "string of pearls" upon opening the knife. I first assumed that the knife was striking some cross pins upon closing. This was not the case.

    Despite that condition easing on subsequent polishings, it was still a minor repair and something for which I now watch.

    If you remove metal, the knife is thinner. Thinner means weaker. Weaker limits blade life.

    Unless re-profiling is needed for a specific need (like caping game) it is foolish to thin a knife simply because it better fits your sharpener.

    Get a proper sharpener.


     
    cbwx34
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-17-06 17:45.28 - Post#1108528    


        In response to Chico Buller

    You're right, needless removal isn't warranted. But a knife should also be sharpened for what you're going to use it for.

    The question wasn't "my sharpener only does 15 degrees, can I sharpen my knife with it?" The question was, "I would like to put a 15 deg. bevel on, will it work for this knife?"

    Are you going to tell me, every knife you sharpen, you keep the same bevel? (Don't say yes, I've alredy found posts that you dont). Many knives come with an edge that needs to be thinned.

    You're statement of "thinner means weaker, weaker limits blade life" is not true, if the knife is properly used. Thinning an edge can make a knife perform better, and going to 15 deg. isn't going to turn it into a weak knife that won't hold up... especially for cutting cardboard and whittling. If he did notice some edge fatigue, he could just apply the 40 deg. bevel with little loss. I could make the opposite arguement that a thick blade will shorten blade life... if I have to pound it thru something just to make a cut. Ever seen a knife get twisted or broken, because the person is applying so much force to try and cut something?

    Tips break, edges fail, no matter how they're sharpened. Not wanting to improve a knife's edge because, "Gee, I may drop it and break the tip off", to me is not a good arguement.

    cbw
    cbw

    Used Sharpening Equipment For Sale


     
    Chico Buller
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-18-06 04:26.59 - Post#1108701    


        In response to cbwx34

    [quote=cbwx34]You're right, needless removal isn't warranted.
    [/quote]

    For the most part, the design of the knife stems from its intended use. For example, a Buck 110 can field dress a deer, a scalpel is needed for surgery. If you change the cutting geometry, then most times the knife renders poor performance.

    [quote]Are you going to tell me, every knife you sharpen, you keep the same bevel?
    [/quote]

    Of course not. Clients come in with all types of diverse needs. But in most cases I put magic marker on the knife and begin sharpening. And for the most part, the original bevel is crooked or it doesn't match the opposite side.

    But in some cases a hunter/sportsman wants a knife for a specific purpose.

    He might be going on the elk hunt of his life. He wants me to take an existing knife and "thin it" (and apply a mirror finished spooky edge) to make a caping knife to ensure a good mount by a taxidermist. From then on, that's the use for that knife. He uses the knife for no other chore at camp.

    Another client might be a wilderness camper or backpacker. He carries only the basics and wants only one knife. We decide what brand and model will best hold an edge for several weeks of brutal use, and then sharpen the knife for edge retention.

    Obviously, these two clients have knives sharpened at different angles, and yes, I have changed the orignal edge.

    [quote]"thinner means weaker, weaker limits blade life"
    [/quote]

    My Dad was an engineer. You cannot remove metal and make something stronger.

    [quote]if the knife is properly used. Ever seen a knife get twisted or broken, because the person is applying so much force
    [/quote]

    I see this all of the time. Most guys here really like knives, value them, and take very good care of them. But many of my clients are farriers, farmers and truckers. Their knives see extreme, outdoor use and get abused almost daily.

    [quote]Tips break
    [/quote]

    Yes, and even among careful clients. A knife will slip out of a hunter's cold hand, or it is dropped by an over-the-road trucker trying to slice slippery tarp.

    I think my focus on thinning and repair are grounded in the fact that I not only sharpen the knives of serious collectors and sushi chefs, but also the knives of blue collar joes where repair is just as important as sharpening.





    Edited by The Tourist on 12-18-06 04:29.13. Reason for edit: No reason given.
     
    cbwx34
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-18-06 07:35.54 - Post#1108844    


        In response to Chico Buller

    • The Tourist Said:
    For the most part, the design of the knife stems from its intended use. For example, a Buck 110 can field dress a deer, a scalpel is needed for surgery. If you change the cutting geometry, then most times the knife renders poor performance.


    Maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm refering to the edge, not the entire blade. Personal experience, sharpening for others, and countless posts, have demonstrated to me that most knives are not sharpened to their potential by the maker... exception being custom knives. There's even an article in the'06 Knives Illustrated magazine that talks about this.

    Most of your remaining post seems to support what I said. You sharpen a knife according to its intended use. And most knives don't come with the correct edge geometry.

    • The Tourist Said:
    thinner means weaker, weaker limits blade life"

    My Dad was an engineer. You cannot remove metal and make something stronger.


    I didn't say it would make it stronger, I said a thinner blade doesn't shorten blade knife, if it's used for its intended purpose. And the benefits of a better cutting edge, far outway the increased risk of damage, which in most cases, isn't increased significantly in the first place.


    cbw
    cbw

    Used Sharpening Equipment For Sale


     
    Chico Buller
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-18-06 15:54.55 - Post#1109358    


        In response to cbwx34

    CBWX34,

    I think we are on the same page.

    Yes, you are correct in observing that a great many knives are not sharpened in any way, shape or form near their potential. To be fair, I'm not sure that many clients/owners care.

    To a serious collector and polisher this might seem odd. After all, you've paid good money for the knife, why then wouldn't you want the best?

    This is a paradox I see daily. A client buys a good santoku knife--pays me a small fortune to put a sashimi quality edge on it--and then runs it through the dishwasher!

    But then, a client might save a few bucks buying a cheap knife--constructed of mundane steel and hardened off of the chart for edge retention--and then he complains about chipping. He sneers at my repair cost.

    I follow the work of Paul Bos and the work he has done for Strider and for Buck. He has raised the bar for the industry and given us modern steels with proper heat treatment.

    After three years, some of my clients at the sporting goods store now flip over the package of a new knife, or check the ricasso, for the alloy of the steel. They google metalurgy info, and they ask me knowledgeable questions, where they previously just asked for "sharp."

    They have become enlightened consumers.

    Let me address the concept of "thinning" and "shortening life of the knife."

    Yes, some clients are asking questions, but most do not. They buy a knife like people buy a shoe horn. It's just a piece of metal which acts as a tool.

    When this mindset occurs, they treat knives like screwdrivers. "If it breaks, I'll but another."

    After watching me sharpen, some clients want the convenience of sharpening at home. Rather than call Ben Dale, they buy the first diamond they see on the shelf. And in many cases, they remove far too much metal.

    The issue is that they still treat knives like pry bars. As knives are thinned--but still abused--the chances of damage increase.

    I would guess that +10% of all knives I see have some part of the tip broken off. I charge to fashion a new tip.

    The clients don't seem to mind. In fact, they tell me about needing the knife for a Phillips screwdriver in relating a humorous story.

    If all of my clients were KF members, I would get pristine knives that had simply gone dull from responsible use. But I found knives at one of Madison's high-end restaurants that appeared to be maintained by journeymen blacksmiths. Abuse is common.

    In that regard, a knife with "a little meat on its bones" gives me a fighting chance for repair.

    Thin knives lead some pretty short lives.




    Edited by The Tourist on 12-18-06 15:56.22. Reason for edit: No reason given.
     
    cbwx34
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-18-06 16:26.09 - Post#1109412    


        In response to Chico Buller

    Ok, I see where you're coming from now.

    Thanks

    cbw
    cbw

    Used Sharpening Equipment For Sale


     
    Chico Buller
    Master Member KnifeNut!
    *
    12-18-06 18:49.34 - Post#1109513    


        In response to cbwx34

    CBWX34,

    I can tell you love knives. Finding better ways to sharpen and maintain items must mean a lot to you since you take the time to write.

    But I'd like to see your face when knives are dropped off for sharpening.

    For example, in Wisconsin we are at the "quiet before the storm" period in hunting. Some deer hunting has ended. However, some 'hot zones' are still open, and in some cases of private land, they may be open into the spring.

    Most gun hunting is over, however.

    Over the last two weeks, I have sharpened twenty knives with blood, tallow and dirt still on the blade.

    In the case of one farrier, I had to take his hoof knife to our breakroom area and clean the horse manure off of the edge before I began to work.

    Contrast this with my personal collection of "drawer queens" that seldom see the light of day.

    And I'm no different. I carry an Emerson HD-7 as an EDC, but I do have a CS Voyager in 4-inch plain clip-point ordered to use on crud.

    (For some goofy reason, I carry my SnG without the same fear of damage.)

    Yin and Yang. A beautiful chrome Harley and the crappy black T-shirts I wear when I ride. How do you figure it out?

    I'll tell you this, when a client produces a knife, it's always a surprise and most often a challenge.

    BTW, I usually carry over a dozen Edge-Pro 180 grit stones for shaping and repair. I have four or five bulk-packs of polishing papers and two cans of Nevr-Dull. I have two separate sets of Torx, a can of WD-40 and a can of black-moly spray.

    Should I add a torch and a brass hammer?


     


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