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Post: File Guide and Jig Tutorial (Topic#763907)

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

03-25-06 18:28.30 - Post#891266

Attachment: Second_Post_--_1.jpg (44.41 KB) 496 View(s)

Hints and Tricks on using File Guides and File Jigs.

If this is your first visit to this subject, please visit the following two postings. After you’ve read them, please close the windows that they will do not “clog�? your web browser. You will then return to this posting…

“Excellent File Guide $12.99�?

File Guides and File Jigs -- A Primer...

There were a few tips I forgot to mention when posting the last message. This first posting will only cover those forgotten tips on putting it all together, I will add to this posting (as a Reply) to tell you the tricks I learned the hard way… So keep checking back over the next couple of days as I add more…

First, the Tie Rod End, find a source for it first. It will probably be the hardest to find. I’ve given some sources in the previous posts, but it all depends on your location and resourcefulness.

I suggest you go for a Tie Rod End that will accept a 1/4�? drill rod, but I would have no qualms with a 5/16�?, but I would shy a way from one that uses a 3/8�? drill rod. You will need to flex the rod a bit and the 3/8�? drill rod may not be flexible enough (I’ll explain later why it needs to flex). Don’t be awfully concerned about what size thread it will screw onto. Even if you are stuck with one that uses only a 1/4�? shaft, you can always build a base where the threaded shaft is relatively short…

Second, the Drill Rod is you next issue. As before, I’ve given you a source for it. But the drill rod, cut 36�? long has a blunt, even bent tip on each end. And the second part of this, the Drill Rod may not exactly fit through the Tie Rod End ball hole.

To resolve the bent, dull ends of the drill rod, I put some files within reach (my pocket), I chucked the drill rod into a hand drill and clamped it to my work bench. Now, you have a drill with a 36�? long annealed piece of drill rod sticking out. Wrap you fingers around the drill rod (about 2’ up) and turn on the drill. Don’t worry, there are no cutting teeth so it won’t rip up your hand and if you don’t grip it with a “life or death grip,�? you will not get a friction burn. Using you files, file down the tip (last 1�? of rod) of the spinning drill rod so you have a nice graceful blunt end. Turn off the drill, turn the drill rod around and do the other end.

Now, what if your drill rod does not pass through the Tie Rod End ball hole? Since the Tie Rod End will probably be your most expensive component of this set up and it would be exceedingly difficult to run a larger drill through the hole to widen it, I say do not touch the Tie Rod End. You could ream it, but the next drill rod may not be as tight a fit.

With my drill rod still chucked in the drill, I selected various grades of sandpaper (200, 400, 800, 1000) and turned on the drill again and instead of just wrapping my fingers around the rod, I wrapped sand paper around it and as the drill spun I ran the sandpaper back and forth, up and down the full length of the rod. Every so often, I kept re-checking the fit on the Tie Rod End. When it was a pretty good fit, I went up a grade on the sandpaper, finally ending at 1000 grit. This left a near mirror finish and it would not cause any undue wear on the bronze ball.

The Handle to hold the drill rod, as you can see in the photo, I am using a standard adjustable (and removable) file handle (available at most hardware stores) to hold my files, but I drilled a 1/4�? hole above the file jaws and inserted the drill rod (with hot glue) to make it all one unit. When I want to change files, it’s a simple matter of loosening the end cap and inserting a new file. Note that I’ve put a couple of layers of electrical tape on the top of the file to keep the teeth from digging into the drill rod and I also use electrical tape (wrapped around the tip) to stabilize the end.

Finally, since the File Guide pivots up and down on the side and edge of the blade, depending on the angle of the filing, I also put some electrical tape on the jaws of my vice so that the constant, and repeated strokes of the file do not mar the edge of blade.

Well, that covers what I forgot to mention before. As I mentioned earlier, keep checking back over the next few days for the filing techniques that will give you beautiful results.

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

Edited by Jerry Hossom on 01-06-07 06:59.17. Reason for edit: No reason given.

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

03-25-06 21:25.12 - Post#891377
In response to BruceJensky

Here are a few more notes that I need to mention.

When you set up your Knife Jig you need to decide how you will feel the most comfortable filing the blade. As mentioned in a previous post, I had the unit mounted on my work bench, but with the bench being 32�? high and then mounting a vice to it, I was filing with my shoulders hunched up like the “Hulk�? and it put a lot strain on my muscles. Remember, you will be filing for several hours, it’s not like filing a lawn mower blade where you are only doing it for a few minutes…

I tried installing it on my Work Mate (only 28�? high) and it was a lot easier on me. I like it so much that’s how I do it now and it’s portable so I can carry it outside on nice days…

Next, you need to decide a what angle (filing in an upward motion or filing in a downward motion) is most comfortable for you. My Tie Rod End is approximately 3�? higher than my vice so I am filing in an upward motion. I cut my threaded rod at long enough so I had plenty of leeway in adjusting it.

Well, that’s it for now, stay tuned for more updates…

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

03-25-06 23:25.49 - Post#891428
In response to BruceJensky

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Now, we need to cover the techniques to file a knife using a File Guide And File Jig.

Here you are, at Photo 1, looking at knife blanks and probably saying, “OK, so how do I know what angle to file the blade.

First off, you will have to decide how you want to the knife to look. Do you want a long tapered cutting edge (where the bevel is near the top or back of the blade) or do you want a shallow taper (where you have more flat side than bevel)?

I like the bevel to be more than half, but less than three quarters, I like the angular qualities that will show off the facet like edges of the filing.

In Photo 2, you can see how I mark the blade. I use a “Sharpie�? permanent magic marker installed in a compass. I use a “dull�? marker so that the mark is bold and it gives me some “wiggle�? room. I set the width and trace the mark over the blade allowing the point to run along the cutting edge. I’m sorry but I did not have any blanks available to demonstrate it on so I used a knife I had already filed, but you get the point… After marking your blade, set the compass aside where it will not get changed. If you need to remark the blade for any reason, it’s ready to go…

Next, you need to mark the cutting edge so that your cutting edge will be centered down its axis so your blade does not look like a chisel… I covered this procedure in another post, so please review my replies to the link below…

Edge Condition for Heat Treat

Now that you have marked your blade and you are ready to lock it in the file guide. Put masking tape on the blade in the handle/guard area, where you will not be filing, so that the pressure of the file guide does not drive any steel particles into the blade steel (those little dimples are a devil to remove…).

Clamp the guide into the vice and mount the Protractor onto the guide. The Protractor has a magnetic base so it stays put while I adjust the angle. If your Protractor has a base too wide or your bolt heads are too close together to allow the Protractor to sit on the guide, you may need to lay a piece of square steel stock on the guide to clear the bolt heads. The square steel stock comes in various sizes 1/4�?, 3/16�?, etc… and is sold by the foot at all hardware stores in their metal section.

My “Base Angle�? is 6 degrees to start. Your base angle will depend on how high or how low you mount the tie rod end in relationship to the top of the vice… For starters, just eyeball it, write down the angle on a note pad.

If you do not have a protractor, just eye ball it. You just have to be that much more careful if you have to reset the angle during the filing of one side. And setting the angle for the other side is just as difficult as the first because you do not have that reference angle to start with… But once you’ve sold a knife, you can buy a protractor.

Now, before you start filing, place your file so that the middle of the file is in contact with the blade and swivel the vice so that when you pinch the file up against the file guide, there should be no light passing through and tighten the swivel base. Recheck the file/guide contact, they should be perfectly parallel where they contact.

Now you can start filing…

In Photo 4, I am filing one side of the blade. The file stroke is started at the guide (A) and I file in a slight diagonal direction so my stroke moves along the blade (B), I lift the file slightly for the next stroke. The file doesn’t cut on the back stroke and steel filings have a tendency to fill the teeth. The nest stroke will overlap the end of the first stoke, ending at (C). Be sure to overlap all of your strokes or you will get a wavy edge. Depending on the length of your stroke, and how far you travel laterally and the length of the blade, you may make just 3 strokes, 4 strokes, or even 5 strokes or more… As you approach the tip (D) you should turn the file slightly. But be careful here, you do not want to run the file too far over the tip. If you do, the file will roll and instead of a point, you’ll get a very round point.

Additionally, keep your file card (file cleaner/brush) handy and keep cleaning your file. One piece of steel stuck in the file teeth will leave a nasty mark and if you are close to the end, you will have to take too much steel off to clean up the mark.

As you file, you need to monitor the cutting of the bevel, if you are getting to the magic marker line way too fast and you are not near the cutting edge, then you need to change the angle of the file guide. Mount your protractor, again making sure you’ve written down the angle, and adjust the guide. In this case, you should loosen the vice jaws slightly and lower the file guide (end facing the Tie Rod End) slightly, maybe 1/2 or 1 degree.

If you are getting to the cutting edge too quickly, and you are a long way from the magic marker line, you should raise the end of the guide, again 1/2 or 1 degree.

Keep monitoring the cutting action of the file. Ideally, you will reach the magic marker line as you reach the mark for the cutting edge. Some times, you really need just a whisker more angle, but it’s too small for adjusting the file guide. Well, this is where a flexible drill rod comes in. If I am real close to the cutting edge, but I do not want to take any more off the side, I will put a little pressure on the handle of the file as I stroke, This will lift the file end slightly and in the schemes of things, it’s almost impossible to see if you do not know what to look for. On the other hand, if I need to cut a bit more from the side to reach the magic marker mark, I will put some downward pressure on the end of the file so it cuts on the high side of the blade.

Photo 5, shows the filing of the other side of the blade. Since you wrote down the angle that you filed the first side of the blade at, you should have no trouble getting it set up. Remember to swivel the base of the vice around for this side so that the file and the guide make good contact…

I find filing this side a bit more difficult. First off, I’m right handed and I’m twisting to a left to file. Additionally, when using a “Mill�? file, it cuts better moving right to left. Other than that, it’s pretty much the same…

In my next Reply to this posting, I will include photos of various knives where I’ve used these techniques.

I’m sure I’ve forgotten some minor points, so stay tuned for future update to this posting.

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

03-26-06 19:54.33 - Post#891943
In response to BruceJensky

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OK, I hope I’ve finally gotten all the ideas and tips now…

Photo 1 shows the filing of a clipped point knife. It’s a posed picture, and I screwed up. It was late last night and I wanted to finish this posting. Although this setup will work, the actually setup should be with the knife reset into the guides so that only the clip point area is exposed, not the whole blade. If you try to file the clip point with this much of the blade sticking out, it will vibrate something horrible and turn out terrible. Additionally, the knife should be set up so that the blade is above the vice, not hanging below the jaw.

To set up the guide lines, you would use the same methods previously discussed -- magic marker and compass, and a carbide scribe.

Please note that the protractor is showing an angle of 30 degrees. You just have to decide what angle is pleasing to your eye.

Photo 2 shows a knife and talks about sanding off the edges of your files. Now it’s not a lot of sanding, just a touch, to knock the “tooth�? off the cutting corners. I use my belt sander and it takes just a quick lick. If you are unsure about this, take an out file and give it a try. Then put a piece of scrape steel in your vice, turn your file over on edge and file a small channel (notch) to see that it isn’t square on the edges.

If you do not sand the edges off your files, they will leave a sharp inside angle in the area of the blade indicated in the photo. Besides increasing the chances of the blade cracking during heat treatment and cryo treatment, it is very hard to sand this area of the blade…

Speaking of sanding (Photo 3), I took some old files and sanded all the teeth off to make a nice smooth finish. If you do not remove the teeth and try to wrap sand paper around the file, the teeth will just cut through the sandpaper…

To sand these blades, you use the same setup as you did to file the blade, except you attach one of the sanded off files, cut a strip of sandpaper (about 1-1/2�? wide) and hod it in place with your hand. Roll the sides of the sand paper around the edge of the file tape it in place with electrical tape at the top and bottom of the file.

Since you wrote the angle down (remember that???), you should be able to re-set the blade back pretty quickly. To get the most accurate setup, I draw on the flat that I am sanding with a thick magic marker and lightly sand the blade. Ideally, all the marker will be removed in just a pass or two. If the marker near the cutting edge is removed only, raise the edge of the file guide (side next to tie rod end) ever so slightly. If the marker nearest the flat of the side of the blade is removed, lower the file guide. Re-mark the blade and do this again until the marker is removed in a pass or two of the sand paper.

As I said, I hope this is it. My next Reply to this posting will be some photos of the blades I’ve completed using these methods…

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

03-26-06 21:53.48 - Post#892027
In response to BruceJensky

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This is it, I promise, no more long drawn out explanations…

I will not add anything else to these postings on File Guides And File Jigs, unless there are questions. Then and only then, will I utter another sound (keyboard clacking…).

I’ve include four photos to show that my methods turn out knives that with sharp ridges (facets…) and if you took good notes (wrote down the angles, changes, etc…) these knives are repeatable and that is why I scanned multiple knives, (there is no trick editing where I cut and pasted another copy of the same knife into the photos). Each of these knives have at lease one copy that I am working on now.

I do a lot of “matched sets�? usually one knife in 1/8�? and it’s mate 3/16�? or in the case of the Bowies, they are 3/16�? and 1/4�? (I call them “My Wicked Sisters…�?).

My matched sets are often sold to spouses, and a parent and child (father/son, father/daughter, mother/son, and mother/daughter).

So I hope you enjoyed these posting and learned a lot. If you have any questions, just ask.

Adios,

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

barber
Journeyman KnifeNut!

Loc: Texas
Reg: 04-26-04

04-09-06 18:08.52 - Post#901311
In response to BruceJensky

Great big thanks for the file guide posts. I'm definatly going to do it this way!
One question, what sequence of sand paper works for you from fine mill file to working ( hunting knife ) finish ?? suppose I should have said before heat treating and after temper. 01 steel.
many many thanks, I have tried to read every post by you I can find. Newby-- but I'm 72.
Richard Grantham TX

BruceJensky
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Yorktown, VA
Reg: 02-04-05

04-09-06 21:45.31 - Post#901413
In response to barber

Richard,

Thank you for the kind words. Where in Texas are you? I do not live there anymore, but I started my knifemaking when I lived in San Angelo in Tom Green County.

First let me say that all sanding is done in a crosshatched pattern, I sand for a while one way, then 90° (or so…) the other way. This way, any lines left from the previous grits easily show up.

The following applies to most, common steels used in knifemaking (O-1, D-2, 440-C, 440-V, 154-CM, AST-34, etc…). There are those who have their own “secret, patented methods�? and if they are different, I hope they will share their processes with us.

With that said, I start my sanding with grits starting at 36. When the only marks are from the 36, I step up to 80 and again, when only the lines from the 80 remain, I go to 120 and then to 200.

Now, I diverge from some of the accepted and published norms. If you have done your homework, you will have read that sanding to a grit of 200 is adequate, I go to 400 (I will explain this in a moment…).

Now, you either harden the blade yourself or send it off for hardening. Once that steel is hardened, you now have to go back a couple of grit levels to remove the scale and even if your blade is hardened in an argon gas oven (they slowly pump argon gas into the oven to remove the oxygen to minimize oxidation, but there is still some oxidation).

Any case, you have to remove the oxidation and sanding hardened steel is much more difficult than the annealed steel you originally worked with… The lines left from 200 sand paper are deeper than that of 400, therefore the oxidation is greater and more difficult to remove.

Therefore, I now I have a hardened blade and I start my sanding at about 200 or 300 if the oxidation is minimal.

Remember, you are still sanding in a crosshatched pattern…

If I am making a satin finish, I sand up to a grit of 600. When I am completely satisfied that the only marks in the blade are from the 600, I then change direction so that all sanding is done perpendicular to the blade (lines going from the blade edge straight up at 90° to the back of the blade.

This is a time consuming part, because your intent is not to removing steel, just change the direction of the lines.

I have mentioned this in other postings but I get very frustrated doing this. When you start the sanding for the satin finish, you are using fresh sandpaper, but it does not keep it “tooth�? very long and I go through many cut-stripes of sandpaper so the lines keep the same look. I have tried WD-40, oil, grease, water, and other suggested lubricants but sanding dry seems to work best.

Now, if I am going for a mirror finish, I do not stop at 600, I go on to 1000, 1500, and usually stop at 2000. At this point, you should not be able to see any lines no matter which what you sand…

My final caution is, never go to the next size grit until only the lines from the previous grit remains. If for example, there are a few lines left from 200 grit and you are sanding with 400 to remove the lines from the 200. Do not jump up to 600 thinking those last few lines from the 200 will come out later… They will, but not this century…

Best of luck to you Richard and you are as young as you feel.

Bruce

For a knife to be truly “handmade," the knife must be held to the tool or the tool must be held to the knife during its making… if it’s a “hands-off" operation, it ain’t handmade…

barber
Journeyman KnifeNut!

Loc: Texas
Reg: 04-26-04

04-10-06 05:52.20 - Post#901517
In response to BruceJensky

Bruce, many thanks for reply and to the Sears sander too. I live near San Antonio. Quick old man tale- my one try at knife making was in AF, I had read about using file, knew you had to heat red hot too soften. Welding shop heated me a fle, I then put in weeks fileing, had them heat it up to red again and I plunged it into water, of course it bent in a curve away from angle I had used, I then took it to a metal bench and give it a whack to straighten- popped in two pcs as it was still hard. Thanks to computers I know have it straight in my head as to process. I have also ordered the $50 knife book.
Thanks again for help-- love the look of your knifes, the Loveless style drop points looks like a knife should look!!! to me.
Richard Grantham

mack1
Master Member KnifeNut!
mack1

Loc: Cowlesville(Buffalo), NY
Reg: 03-16-06

01-02-07 07:00.45 - Post#1120830
In response to BruceJensky

Bruce, your info has been invaluable! I'm getting to this stage in my knives, have tried filing that nice, crisp line on my blades,(with some decent results, but just not quite good enough!) This past week, I've collected and assembled the parts needed. Now I'm ready. Thanks again!

Tryin' to hold a train of thought but it departed.

svi40
Master Member KnifeNut!

Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC
Reg: 10-06-04

01-03-07 16:09.52 - Post#1121873
In response to mack1

Thank you very much for all of this information. Very well thought out, photographed, and explained.

I've just finished my first knife and with all that I learned while doing it, from reading books, and now this post; I know the next attempt will be heads and shoulders above my first.

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